To almost anyone else in business, this would be a whirlwind afternoon. To the indefatigable Catherine Swift, it is just another day at the office.

Early in the afternoon, the chief executive officer of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB) is in Ottawa holding court with Finance Minister Ralph Goodale. Then, she makes a mad dash back to her Toronto office for this late-afternoon interview.

There aren't enough hours in the day for Swift to do justice to all the issues broached by the CFIB's 105,000 businesses, primarily small businesses, but the combative Toronto native leaves the impression that it won't stop her from taking a run at every last one of them.

As one of the most influential voices of small business in Canada, Swift, an economist in her eighth year as CEO of the CFIB, doesn't seem to mind being a thorn in the side of the bureaucrats in Ottawa on political issues that are crucial to her constituents. No doubt, the finance minister would attest to that.

Ken Kerr, Business Edge
The CFIB's Catherine Swift makes sure the economic role of small business stays front and centre in her mandate.

1. You met with Ralph Goodale today. How did that meeting go?

"We discussed quite a number of issues. One doesn't waste these occasions. We talked about the priorities of our members. For the last two quarters, we've seen a decline in the confidence of our members and we discussed that with him because naturally that will affect the whole economy. We also talked about the fact that fuel prices are the No. 1 reason for the decline in optimism of our members. We let him know that our members are currently prioritizing personal tax reductions as the best area to focus on in the tax area. He found that interesting. We also showed him a study that we've done quite recently on the issue of business succession. With the population aging, there are so many business owners on the verge of handing over or selling their businesses."

2. Did you come away feeling it was a productive meeting?

"It was a good meeting. He's a very thoughtful guy and he gets the issues. I thought it was positive. A lot of our suggestions were ones that he clearly felt had merit. We naturally know that not everything is going to happen, but I do think he was very receptive to a few of the areas that are sensible and demonstrate a greater bang for the economy."

3. What do you think the federal government should do about high energy costs?

"We did discuss this. We know how much crude prices have changed but why have the refiners' margins tripled over the last couple of years? Well, we think there's some opportunistic profit-taking going on there. If one had kind of a watchdog function somewhere, and I don't really care whether it's in a parliamentary committee or whatever, that might be something that would at least help us get a better handle on what's going on. A reduction in the federal tax on fuel would at least be going in the right direction. That's obviously not the whole answer by any stretch but, for example, there's the 11/2-cent premium that was added to the federal gas excise tax back in '95. That was done as a (government) deficit reduction assistance measure. Well, the deficit's been gone since '98 and we've still got that tax happening. Those are some of the possibilities. We also discussed a more general concept of an across-the-board reduction in personal income tax, where at least you're freeing up resources for fuel or whatever."

4. If energy prices continue to escalate long term, how do you see that affecting the Canadian economy?

"Well, it would be very negative obviously, except for Alberta. Yet, what's interesting is that in our last quarterly survey, I was interested to see that the confidence levels in Alberta had fallen as well. It was not as much as in other parts of the country, but it had fallen somewhat. There's no question it (high energy prices) would have a negative effect around the world. When we look at our largest competitor, the U.S., we do have a significantly higher tax bite on gas than they do. You have to ask if that is something the government would want to be looking at to at least keep us on an even keel with the economy that we're closest to, and that we rightly compare ourselves to frequently."

5. How do you see small businesses in particular weathering the storm of high energy prices and perhaps a recession?

"Most analysts right now are believing that with the onset of cold weather, we are going to have prices at least maintaining the current level, but that they're going to start to fall in the new year. Whether that's right or not, it's anybody's guess, but that's the current thinking. That being said, our members are clearly hurting now. They don't have the ability, in many cases, to pass the price increases on - certainly not 100 per cent, but maybe they can pass some of it on. That can't go on forever. The possibility of a recession is there if this continues. Mind you, it would be a global scenario. You can look at conservation (of energy) or whatever, but that's not going to happen in a few months."

Ken Kerr, Business Edge
Catherine Swift says it's a challenge to keep pace with the fast-changing business environment here and globally.

6. How much political clout does your organization have in lobbying government for change and are you satisfied with the response you're getting?

"You always want more (clout). After all, that's the game we're in. There's no question they recognize the value of small business. Sometimes we're frustrated by the political shenanigans. You can say that about any government, especially now. We are frustrated that some of the really important issues aren't being looked at because everybody's fighting on a partisan level and also there's too much spending going on federally because they feel they have to throw money at everything. So that's very frustrating. But again, unfortunately minority governments historically are big spenders, so it's not like this is an anomaly."

7. Do you enjoy this role as a government lobbyist?

"I do enjoy it. What works is persistence. Actually, our motto is, 'We never give up and we never go away.' (Laughing) And it's true. We live it. It's not just a catchphrase. This is actually our 35th anniversary. Also, non'-partisanship matters and we're very religious about that. A lot of groups, sometimes almost inadvertently, drift into the partisan zone and that'll kill you one way or the other. Also, the fact we don't take money from governments and banks is important. In fact, we are funded exclusively by our members. I believe we're the only group in Canada that can say that. Every other business group I know of is beholden to government on one front or another and that means they are compromised with their ability to truly and accurately represent their constituency. And we've made a real deliberate point of not getting sucked into that. Something we also do as a matter of course is not take a position on any matter unless we've polled our members on it and have a clear majority position, pro or con.

"Good research matters, too. You can't just go in and say, 'I don't like that!' You've got to say, 'We don't think this works and we've done our homework.' Over the years, we've put a lot of energy into having good research on small- business issues and it pays off, because then you're credible. People know I'm not just blowing something off the top of my head."

8. Growing up in Toronto, what was your childhood dream?

"I was very athletic in my younger days and I might have contemplated some kind of athletic career. Then I got into this economics/business thing and found it very fascinating. I've always been intrigued by the whole public policy area. It's fast and if you can influence it in a positive way, you really feel like you're making a difference - and you are. Also, the small-business constituency is wonderful to work with. They're truly independent and contributors to community. There are things that the large corporate world and small businesses may have in common in some respects. But when you do something that benefits small business, you're definitely going to benefit your community, your national economy, etc. You could do something that would help big business and those profits might just go zinging offshore. I'm not saying that's always the case, of course."

9. What sports did you play in your youth?

"I was a pretty serious gymnast. I used to work out with the Olympic team in my teens. I still play baseball and hockey. I've played almost everything. When I was 14, I actually made a conscious decision not to try to make the Olympics. I just thought it would eat up too much of my life."

10. Can you talk about your parents' influence on your life?

"There's no question they instilled values in me that aren't necessarily everywhere, like doing what you say you're going to do. You know, all that basic common-sense stuff that everybody thinks is normal but doesn't seem to happen a lot of the time. That's what I tell my kids. They say, 'Gee, at my part-time job, my boss thinks I'm great.' I say, 'Well, you know, you show up on time and put in a decent day's work.' It's really not rocket science. And yet so many people don't do those things so you end up looking like a star when you're really doing what you should be doing."

11. How has your experience working with the government served you in your current role?

"It has served me very well. For one thing, I was an insider and now when I have rows with the government and they go, 'Oh, we don't do that in the government,' I say, 'Oh yes, you do, I know you do because I was there.' It certainly has helped me to understand Ottawa. I worked a lot in ministers' offices so I got to understand that part of the process. What I found interesting when I arrived at (Toronto-Dominion Bank as an economist) after working in the government, I was sort of looked upon as a lower lifeform because my major experience as an economist was in the public sector and the public sector was viewed very dimly. Yet, I found the private-sector bureaucracy pretty much just as stultifying as the public-sector one."

12. Why did you leave TD after four years to join CFIB in 1987?

"The opportunity came up here for the chief economist job. I also didn't like either the public- or private-sector bureaucracies - I realized that bureaucracy was not my idea of a good time."

13. How would you describe your style in dealing with government?

"I'm pretty assertive. I'm pretty pig-headed. I'm pretty stubborn. And I don't like to give up. And I do like to win. Those kinds of things do work. I also think the economic/business background provides a valuable perspective for what I do. And I am by heart also a researcher. I don't like to be superficial. I like to get at an issue and I like to understand it in depth. Research is my first love and I still like to muck around with data and things like that."

14. Is winning everything to you?

"Well, I guess it depends on the battle. Some of the best wins are the ones that never hit the light of the day in our business, which maybe doesn't make sense. By the time you're hitting the headlines, that's the penultimate in a policy process. The best wins we get are the ones you never hear about. We found something at the middle bureaucracy level and we've either killed it or changed it or done something with it that makes it amenable for the small-business community. Winning's important, but I would have to say that integrity is more important. What I feel most strongly about our organization is that we have excellent credibility and, as we all know, credibility takes a long time to develop and about a nanosecond to wreck. We're very, very deliberate and careful because that credibility is everything to us. Just to exist, we're a voluntary membership organization and nobody has to be a member of CFIB. So we have to prove value to our members every day, and if we don't, they won't be a member. In the end, the thing that makes me feel best is really feeling I'm making a positive difference for my country, not just for 'x' business or 'y' business."

15. What's your proudest achievement as CEO of CFIB?

"Oh, gosh, that's a tough one because there have been so many good achievements with a lot of my colleagues. The No. 1 issue for our members is always tax related and we've had many, many victories on the tax front and with the bank merger debate of 1998, in which our members told us repeatedly that they had major problems with. But, getting away from the issues, one of my proudest achievements is that I succeeded the founder here and apparently the failure rate when you succeed a founder is about 80 per cent. And that scared the pants off me when I first took the job. I came here as a chief economist and I never for a minute dreamt that I would end up becoming president. But the proudest thing is that we've continued to grow really well, serve our constituency really well and the organization, at the age of 35, is regularly cited as the most influential group in the country. And that makes me feel real good."

16. What's the most daunting challenge that small businesses in Canada face today?

"Keeping pace with the incredible rapidity in which our business environment changes. Right now, we're seeing trading relationships around the world shifting significantly and that's affecting everybody. It's almost impossible to keep up with what's going on with technology.

The issue of government regulations is an out-of-control juggernaut. Governments all over say, 'How do we fix this problem? We'll make another regulation.' And they (regulations) rarely get taken off the books. For the small business with fewer resources to sort of deal with all these things, it's very, very challenging. And the big challenge in the next 10-20 years is the challenge of succession. In Canada, we have proportionately the biggest baby boom in the world, so we've got a big challenge now in the small-business community.

"A lot of small businesses now want to sell their businesses and hand them off. A business owner might think, 'I'm going to retire in five years, but I don't have to worry about that for four and a half years.' Well, that's not true. You have to start worrying about it now. We discussed at some length with the finance minister today how various tax measures could facilitate the handing-off of businesses. We view this as a really long-term priority for our economy and it's been a low-key issue that people aren't paying enough attention to."

17. What's your best advice for a budding entrepreneur starting a small business?

"Do lots of homework. There's a ton of good info out there. It's worth doing the research. What we have heard repeatedly from entrepreneurs is that the biggest surprise in getting into business was not the issue of getting financing, but the immense amount of time and energy they spend on filling out papers for government. That always comes as a big shocker, so be ready for it. It's a huge productivity killer."

18. Who's the entrepreneur you would walk over hot coals in bare feet to have coffee with?

"Richard Branson (the British entrepreneur). I find him a pretty interesting character. I've met a lot of great entrepreneurs in this country such as Jimmy Pattison and Frank Stronach, so I wouldn't need to meet them. I like Richard Branson's infectious enthusiasm and his attitude. He also has so many diverse business interests and to make them all work is so rare. Let's face it. A lot of people are really good at one thing and there's nothing wrong with that, but often when they diversify, that's when they get into big trouble."

19. Have you ever aspired to your own business?

"I have thought of it numerous times. If I wasn't having so much fun at the moment I probably would be doing that. One of things I enjoy most about my job is talking to our members. It's a cliché maybe but they really are such decent, hard-working and committed people. Although I'm enjoying this, who knows down the road? We are always looking to the next level. But although we're succession planning, it (departure) is not going to be imminent. You know, I'm not that old."

20. What do you see in your life's crystal ball?

"Well, I hope my health holds because what I'd really like to do is work to promote the development of entrepreneurship in the Third World. I firmly believe that's the answer to poverty and there's some successful work already being done in this area and I think it's an area my own experience could be of use in. In a lot of these horribly poor regions, it (entrepreneurship) ends up raising the standard of living, education and the whole virtuous cycle. Like I say, you've got to be healthy and stuff, but that's what I'd very much like to do."

Catherine Swift

* Title: President/CEO, Canadian Federation of Independent Business (CFIB).

* Born/raised/age: Toronto/52.

* Education: University of Toronto, bachelor of arts, economics; Carleton University, master of arts, economics.

* Career: Swift joined CFIB in 1987 as director of research and held titles as vice-president of research, chief economist, executive VP and president before being appointed CEO in 1997. She also spent seven years with the federal government in the consumer affairs and communications departments, and four years as a senior economist with Toronto-Dominion Bank.

* Favourite entrepreneur: British billionaire Sir Richard Branson.

* Prized possession: Her late father Harold Swift's Second World War RCAF flying medals.

* Favourite author: Margaret Atwood.

* Favourite pastime: Athletic pursuits.

Canadian Federation of Independent Business

* Brass: Catherine Swift, president/CEO; John Bulloch, founder and honourable governor; Garth Whyte, executive VP.

* Profile: Founded in 1971, CFIB is a political action organization that represents the interests of 105,000 small and medium-sized businesses on issues with federal, provincial and local governments. It operates with regional offices across of Canada.

* Claim to fame: CFIB has been instrumental in numerous high-profile actions on policies pertaining to taxes, labour laws and public-sector spending.

* Web Watch: www.cfib.ca

* Head Office: 4141 Yonge St., Suite 401, Willowdale, Ont., M2P 2A6.

* Phone/Fax: 416-222-8022/222-7593.

(Gyle Konotopetz can be reached at gyle@businessedge.ca)